Inside the House: sharp words and important motions

Marleni Cuellar
“We’re reviewing the footage of what was happening in Belmopan today and while Janelle was outside getting the view of the protestors, Stewart, you were inside listening to the conversation and the debates that were going on inside. You want to fill us in on that.”

Stewart Krohn
“Well Marleni, it was not as exciting as what was happening outside the National Assembly building but the debate did have its moments and essentially that’s what everyone was ostensibly there for. What I’ve got is a series of clips of high points in the debate and we’ll play them and have a bit of conversation in between. The first one we are gonna show is of the period where the Leader of Opposition has a change to ask questions. These are questions that are submitted in advance; it’s a regular part of the parliamentary procedure that we are use to. The questions though are very pointed, they are very interesting and you’ll see the Prime Minister’s answers. Remember these aren’t on the spot questions; the Prime Minister has had several days to prepare his answers so Rick if you could roll that first clip.”

Dean Barrow, Leader of the Opposition
“Will the Prime Minster say whether and when he would make available to members of the House copies of the loan note and settlement deed he signed with the Belize Bank on March twenty-third 2007 in respect of the U.H.S. debt.”

Said Musa, Prime Minister
“Madam Speaker, the loan note and the settlement deed were signed as part of structured negotiation with the Belize Bank to settle the U.H.S. debt as I’d mentioned in the statement I made to the nation last week. They were never intended as a final settlement of the matter. This is confirmed by the fact that subsequent negotiations have resulted not only in the reduction of the principal amount but also in the rate of inters. This is reflected in the motion I will introduce in the house today. If the Honourable member for Queen Square still wants to have copies of these documents it is open to him to apply to the prescribed authority under the Freedom of Information Act and the matter will be duly considered based on legal advice.”

Dean Barrow
“Madam Speaker, would the Prime Minister follow up, will he not agree that I have already written to him, apart from this question in the House, asking for copies of those documents that they form part of the record and that in the interest of transparency and openness, to which he says he’s pledged, he needs to make those documents available.”

Said Musa
“Madam Speaker, the Honourable member for Queen Square did write to me. As the attorney for the Belize Bank he should be able to have access without coming to me.”

Dean Barrow
“Madam Speaker, I will allow that to pass for now. I will deal with that when we come to the motion.”

“Will the Prime Minster tell the House how, in view of government’s assumption of responsibility of U.H.S. debt to the Belize Bank, he or his government can foreclose on the collateral put up by the U.H.S. principals to the Belize Bank as he has said in his statement that he will do?”

Said Musa
“Madam Speaker, the government will be acquiring the shares of U.H.S. with all its assets. All property put up by the company as security for the loan will revert to the government together with medical equipment and accessories and equipment worth millions of dollars. As regards foreclosure on any other collateral, this will be a matter for the Belize Bank bearing in mind that the loan was restructured and brought down from the original figure of about thirty-three point six million to twenty-nine million. The bank will have to consider whether to foreclose on any other collateral. As I said in my statement to the nation last week, the principals of U.H.S. will bear full responsibility for their own indebtedness to the bank.”

Dean Barrow
“Follow please Madam Speaker, did the Prime Minister not say that he will force them to account. Is he not now saying that in fact that will be left to the Belize Bank and how does he reconcile the two statements?”

Said Musa
“I’ve answered the question Madam Speaker.”

Dean Barrow
“Will the Prime Minister list for the House any government guarantees under his administration in respect of private sector debts other than the U.H.S. debt?”

Said Musa
“Madam Speaker, as far as I’ve been able to ascertain the only private sector loan guaranteed by this administration was a loan of some two point one million dollars by Atlantic Bank Limited to W & S Engineering Limited to finance land reclamation works undertaken by the company in Belama Phase IV and under a contract signed with the government in 2004. At the completion of the works which is due later this year the government will assume and repay the debt as the beneficiary of the land reclamation works. The payment will be made on the basis of completion certificates issued by the Chief Engineer.”

Dean Barrow
“Madam Speaker, will the Prime Minister confirm that the principal of W & S is Bill Lindo, who is an official of his party?”

Said Musa
“Well you should know; this man is your relative.”

Dean Barrow
“No man, will you confirm”?

Stewart Krohn
“Now guys this is really revealing. I know there is a lot to laugh about. Essentially the Prime Minster is sticking to his story; the same story that we’ve heard in the press conference. I just want to think, well a, certainly Mr. Barrow got the better of exchange in the sense that the Prime Minister really did not answer his questions adequately and these were not exactly surprise or trick questions. Why the Prime Minister is not making available the loan document I beyond me? Why you would tell the Leader of the Opposition to file under the Freedom of Information Act? It seems there is a history here of where the Prime Minister denies and denies and doesn’t release and things get leaked anyway. And then in the end you wonder why stonewall like this when you know in the end the document is gonna come out and it’s gonna come back to burn you in a serious way. What I also interesting is that at this point they are still pretty civil, I mean they’re slinging some pretty sharp barbs but everything is still pretty cool. Now it doesn’t stay that way for very long as the next byte will show you. What we’ll come to next is the actual motion that the government is making which is really the reason why the house meeting is taking place. This is the Prime Minister’s explanation of the settlement that has been made, so if you’ll go ahead and roll that tape please.”

Said Musa
“Whereas the government of Belize has been carrying out the mandate given in the last two elections to provide universal health coverage for all Belizeans and whereas the National Health Insurance, N.H.I. scheme, has been rolled out as quickly and as resources allow based on priority areas providing primary and some secondary health care for some sixty thousand Belizeans today. And at great cost public health facilities have been increased and improved in all districts and whereas both the Belize Social Security Board and the Development Finance Cooperation, the D.F.C., have assisted in the financing of two private sector tertiary care medical facilities to fill the demand for these services so badly needed to save Belizean lives and valuable foreign exchange using the best available technology and medical specialist training thus today actually providing such services and saving many lives. And whereas one of the facilities, the Universal Health Services Group, including a medical arts hospital, a pathology lab and a clinical complete with specialized modern medical equipment, some twenty-three medicals specialists, fifty-three nurses, twelve technicians and some sixty-one other support staff has found itself unable to meet its financial obligations to the D.F.C, the Belize Bank and other creditors and whereas the government of Belize agreed to acquire U.H.S. from its controlling shareholders to utilize its life-saving facilities to advance and improve its objective for universal health coverage in an era of tremendous demand for tertiary care and also to extend the N.H.I. to cover the cost for indigents. And whereas this requires the government taking over the shares of the U.H.S. together with all its assets and liabilities including those of the D.F.C. and the Belize Bank and providing the U.H.S with a working agreement with other public sector health facilities and the best management available for financial viability. And whereas the ceiling on other liabilities with limited working capital has been capped including the settlement with the D.F.C. and the Belize Bank has agreed to provide an ongoing line of credit to cover these liabilities collaterised by the assets of U.H.S. and to be held on the balance sheets of U.H.S. And whereas ongoing process negotiations and several steps for accomplishing the best outcome for Belize have initially provided a ceiling for the existing debt of thirty-three point six million dollars owed to the Belize Bank at an interest rate of thirteen percent. And whereas the process in ongoing negotiations has now reached a final position for a final settlement deed and promissory note the terms and conditions of which are as follows: lender, the Belize Bank; loan principal amount, twenty-nine million dollars; loan term, up to twenty-five years; rate of interest, ten percent per annum; purpose, to enter into a financial settlement of the U.H.S. debt with the Belize Bank and to acquire the shares of U.H.S.”

Patrick Faber, Area Rep., Collet
“Madam Speaker, what is being express here is just the public sentiment out there Madam Speaker. The people of this country have spoken extensively at this meeting. Madam Speaker the people of this country do not want this motion to forward, Madam Speaker. They do not want to pay twenty-nine million dollars. Prime Minister you need to do the honourable thing and throw out this motion, resign . The people do not want this motion to pass.”

Elizabeth Zabaneh, Speaker of the House of Representatives
“Honourable member, honourable member from Collet would you sit. Would you sit, I am standing up.”

Patrick Faber
“The people do not want this motion to be passed, Madam Speaker. The people do not want it. The people do not want to pay. What language do you understand Prime Minister? What language do you understand? The people have said they not want it to be passed. Why are you still continuing? Why are you so stubborn? Why don’t you listen to the people? Why can’t you understand? They not want this motion, why are you still bringing it to this House? Why are you bringing it Prime Minister?”

Elizabeth Zabaneh
“You must be quiet. I am standing up.”

Patrick Faber
“Madam Speaker the people of the country are suffering. The people of this country have said they not want this motion. They have said they don’t want to pay. They do not want to pay twenty-nine million dollars. They will not pay twenty-nine million dollars. Please, Prime Minister listen to the people. The people of this country are begging you. The people of this country are begging you Prime Minister.”

Said Musa (Patrick Faber voicing displeasure in background)
“May I proceed”? And whereas under the provisions of Section 7 of the Finance and Audit Act, reformat 2005, the government may be required to obtain the prior authorization of the National Assembly by way of a resolution for such a borrowing. Now, therefore be it resolved that this honourable House being satisfied that the acquisition of U.H.S. is for the public good.”

Janelle Chanona
“I see what you mean.”

Stewart Krohn
“The Prime Minister did eventually get the resolution out, we’ll see more of Mr. Barrow’s reaction to that but I have to say here that in fifteen years of covering the House of Representatives, in one session, namely today, we were really treated to what I would call two of the most shameful performances by individuals. One, Mr. Patrick Faber, why he went off, fine you could say he was angry, you could say anything he wants but there are rules for every situation and it was clear that he was in total breach of every rule of decorum of the House. But you have to ask, what on earth the Speaker was doing through all of this. There are standing orders, that’s the rule book of the House, and when one member of the House violates the standing orders as severely as Patrick Faber did you have to wonder what the Speaker was doing.”

Janelle Chanona
“Because she was within her rights to warn him and then name him, correct?”

Stewart Krohn
“Oh yeah, I mean Philip Goldson was named for far less than Patrick did. Now it was said, I heard more that one person say this, that the Honourable Patrick Faber was really trying to bait the Speaker; that he was really trying to get named to get kicked out of the House to make himself a hero or make himself a cause so then for his party. So, in that sense, maybe the Speaker didn’t raise to occasion because remember the Speaker is usually criticised for being too partisan. In this particular instance you could say that she showed too much restraint. Now events later on will show the Speaker does some other very strange things which we’ll see. But I want to, focussing on the Speaker for a minute, after the session you had Honourable Finnegan in a short interview Janelle that you did with him.”

Janelle Chanona
“I hadn’t seen anything that what you just played. They just came down the step all hot under the collar and this is what they said.”

Stewart Krohn
“Let us see what Mr. Finnegan has to say first.”

Patrick Faber
“Because we have certain rights and privileges as members of the House and she is definitely infringing on our right.”

Michael Finnegan, Area Rep., Mesopotamia
“Debate the conduct of the Speaker; that is what is the privilege Musa. And we wah move wah motion that the Speaker be removed as the Speaker of the National Assembly. That is a biased son of a bitch.”

Janelle Chanona
“Emotions were definitely running high in that and now I have it in context why they were so upset.”

Stewart Krohn
“Yeah, I mean there’s no doubt who’s going to win and who’s going to loose that motion but as we’ll see in a little bit, I will not say Mr. Finnegan had good reason to use the kind of language he did but Mr. Finnegan had very good reason to be upset; we’ll see that a little bit later. As for Patrick Faber, I caught up with him at the same time that you did and asked him to explain his actions and I think his reply is very interesting.”

Stewart Krohn
“Patrick in the House today, you are known for your outspokenness, but today I think, by any measure, there was no way you were following the standing orders. What was the problem?”

Patrick Faber
“The people of this country, Stewart, have said overwhelming to the Prime Minister that we do not want to pay not a single cent to the U.H.S. loan I think that made clear and at the point where I’m at right now I’m so frustrated, I’m so tired of everything, I didn’t even want to hear the Prime Minister bring in in place that. So he is right, he is right and the Speaker is right in that it was against the standing orders but I wanted to make the point known to the Prime Minster, I wanted to make the point known to the nation that we are tired of this kind of practice where they try to railroad us. I mean the Prime Minster has got to learn to listen to the people. You’ve seen the crowd out here toady; you’ve heard the barrage of calls being made on the morning talk shows, you’ve heard all of the things.”

Stewart Krohn
“But Honourable Faber, does that excuse your behaviour in the House today. I mean is that the way to conduct Parliament?”

Patrick Faber
“well there is a procedure to deal with that kind of thing. If they had the guts; if they thought that I was out of order the Speaker could have invoked the standing order that dealt with that and do the thing whatever way they wanted to do, they could have done that. I’m telling you, Stewart, that I was angry, I am still angry because the Prime Minister is still trying to push this loan down the throats of the Belizean people and I make no apologies for being angry, none at all.”

Stewart Krohn
“Can we look forward to the same kind of behaviour from you next week in the house?”

Patrick Faber
“Well by and large I try to abide by the standing orders of the House. In fact you will see that in all other cases where me and the Speaker go back and forth I try for the most part to abide by the standing orders to the point where she disregards or makes some wrong ruling then that is when I trip out. Your right, this morning that indeed I was off and indeed I try to voice my concern as much as possible but, Stewart, I’m here representing the people of Collet Division. My people have said to me they don’t want this loan in any format and that is what I was standing up for. So I make no apologies for that.”

Stewart Krohn
“Thanks a lot Patrick.”

Janelle Chanona
“His position is clear.”

Stewart Krohn
“It’s clear Patrick Faber knows exactly what it’s all about. He has basically said the next time around is he does it, the Speaker do what you have to do. I would say I could not imagine if that happens again that the Speaker would not warn him first, if he disobeys the warring he would be named and once you are named it is up to then the leader of the government business or the opposite side of the person that’s been named to – I think that it’s still in the standing orders that in cooperation with the Speaker that the leader of the majority party then decides what the punishment will be. And it’s usually a suspension from House meetings for a certain length of time.”

Marleni Cuellar
“And he was willing to take that risk for the sake of his constituency.”

Janelle Chanona
“Patrick is now on the record. He professes no ignorance of the standing orders; he is leaving it up to the Speaker. Now he did allude to erroneous ruling that the Speaker has made. She has mad many erroneous rulings in the past and she is going to make many more before this day is over and we will see some of them. If you recall the Prime Minster has made the motion, now it’s the Leader of the Opposition’s turn to make some, we’ve condensed them, but he’s now gonna make his reaction to what Mr. Musa had said.”

Dean Barrow
“Having moved the motion, the debate ought to take place now according to standing order #30.”

Michael Finnegan
“That is correct”

Said Musa
“Madam Speaker, the motion has been proposed and indeed yes it should be read as proposed. There is nothing in the standing orders that says that the debate must take place immediately after. It says and after debate, if any, shall then the question be put. I have said publicly and I wish to repeat to this Honourable House that this government in order to listen to the views of the people have decided to put this matter to a committee and it will be brought back to the house next week for debate. That is the decision. The standing order is silent on the matter. We need not have postponed it. We have decided to do that.”

Dean Barrow
“Madam Speaker, I’m sorry madam, could I ask for you interpretation on the standing order which reads straightforwardly. You see if he, but anyway let me not get into the personalities. Madam Speaker he would have known how to precede properly if he wish to have it go to a committee. On the basis of what he has done he is caught by the standing order; he is caught. On a motion made, the Speaker shall propose the question to the House and after debate shall put the question for decision. How can you interpret that to mean that the debate can take place a week later? You are caught but yuh si, yuh soh devious yuh get ensnared inna yuh own web.”

Said Musa
“You are so full of hate that it will come back to haunt you.”

(Members of the House arguing inaudibly)

Patrick Faber
“Do the honourable thing Madam Speaker. Do the right thing Madam Speaker. I am appealing to your conscience. Do the right thing.”

Said Musa
“Madam Speaker, I move that this motion be referred to the Economic and Finance Committee for consideration. Thank You.”

Patrick Faber
“Do the right thing Madam Speaker. Do the right thing Madam Speaker. Do the right thing. Do the right thing in this Honourable House. I am begging you.”

Janelle Chanona
“Wow, so what does she do?”

Stewart Krohn
“Well, essentially she does nothing and basically the protagonists in the drama play their part and the motion, it should have been a bill but it was a motion, has now been sent to committee.”

“As I see the standing orders and to me as they read fairly clearly, a bill is referred to a committee, a motion is not. In other words the standing orders do not say anything about it so the Prime Minister is right, the standing orders do not address the subject. The question then is, if the standing orders don’t address it then how do you play it. But the point about the Speaker, and the Speaker is a very accomplished woman in her own right, forget about any family ties anywhere she is an accomplished, successful, respected woman but you have to wonder sometimes, either she understands the standing orders and chose to ignore it just to side with the government’s wishes or she genuinely does not understand the standing orders. And to tell you the truth, I don’t know which one scares me more. But it’s getting to a point where I would think she needs to sharpen up.”

Janelle Chanona
“Now, when they came outside and we had that exchange about the motion with Honourable Faber and Finnegan they alluded to filing a privilege motion to move the Speaker. Did that happen today?”

Stewart Krohn
“No, no, I think they are going to move that motion at the next sitting but because of time constraints we can’t show every exchange but on three or four issues where a ruling was needed from the Speaker she either dithered or just gave a ruling that really didn’t make a lot of sense. Ok, so we’re at the point now where the Prime Minister has made his motion, it has been referred to committee; it will come back on Friday. Yet, The Leader of the Opposition you recall had submitted some motion of his own specifically to this issue. Really they are kind of the adverse to the motion that the Prime Minister is making. The Prime Minister is saying, yes this is what we want to do and the Leader of the Opposition is saying this motion says you can’t do this; you can’t pay this money and it really goes to the heart of the whole matter. There are three motions that he actually had proposed in advance. One he withdraws because it may be objectionable so the motion he is going to make now is actually the second one that he prepared but let’s at least see what he has to say.”

Dean Barrow
“Which is the motion to disapprove the government of Belize’s guarantee of the Universal Health Services Company debt to the Belize Bank. That motion, Madam Speaker, is be it resolved that this Honourable House disapprove the government of Belize’s December ninth 2004 guarantee of the Universal Health Services Company Limited’s debt to the Belize Bank on the basis that the said guarantee was signed by the Minister of Finance without the approval or even knowledge of the Cabinet of Belize and on the basis that the guarantee is fundamentally against the economic, social and political interests of the nation.”

Janelle Chanona
“So what’s the reaction to that motion then?”

Stewart Krohn
“Well it’s funny. I mean the motion is defeated but actually what he is describing there is really what the heart of this whole matter and what all of this is about. Now you would think this motion would be the climactic moment of the because now he will eventually call for a roll call – a division of the House where each member has to get up – but those P.U.P. members who are inclined to desert the Prime Minister and vote against him, an interesting has happened. Logically, you would say well if they are against this U.H.S. guarantee they would vote in support of Barrow’s motion. Now what happens, well it’s interesting because two of the members suddenly were no where to be found. Cordel Hyde and Mark Espat disappeared from the room when the roll call is taken. Also, Florencio Marin and Dave Burgos weren’t there. I don’t know, in there case I don’t know, well I don’t really know why any of the four were out. I could suspect why Mark and Cordel were out but let’s leave that alone.”

Janelle Chanona
“And this is long after lunch so it’s not like they are eating in the back room or anything?”

Stewart Krohn
“It’s long after the lunch hour. I don’t know if they have eaten lunch.”

Marleni Cuellar
“And the motion has been read by Mr. Barrow so they know its coming?”

Stewart Krohn
“Oh yes, this is no mystery. The script is well written here. But I gather the reasoning even someone like Joe Coye and John Briceno, who you hear various degrees of rumbling who they are going to oppose the Prime Minister, Joe and Johnny actually voted against Mr. Barrow’s motion. The justification, the logic being that well it’s one thing to fail to support your own motion but quite another to vote with a motion made by the Leader of the Opposition. So, let’s say in talking to John Briceno, Joe Coye, Cordel Hyde, Mark Espat and perhaps Servulo Baeza you’d get the impression that, no, they have no use for the U.H.S. guarantee, that basically they are in sympathy with the masses of the people who are saying no, no, no, but for their own reasons, logically, they found it not uncomfortable to vote against Barrow’s motion simply because it wouldn’t do to support the Leader of the Opposition. It’s a distinction maybe to that effect.”

Janelle Chanona
“Now would that have been kind of like crossing the floor to vote for an opposition motion or that just could have been the worst act of dissention in the P.U.P. ranks?”

Stewart Krohn
“Put it this way, I think that would have been a little, well you know there’s different ways you can look at it because when they fail to support, if they fail to support; remember we got a week to go, if they fail to support the Prime Minster’s motion- now remember this is a motion that comes out of cabinet, there’s cabinet unanimity – so it is really a very serious act to not support an issue that cabinet has ostensibly supported; and when you that you tend to get fired if you are a cabinet minster.”

Janelle Chanona
“And they would have to stand up again one by one?”

Stewart Krohn
“Oh yeah, on Friday they are gonna have to stand up one by one. Now it’s possible they can be absent again. This has a lot of people wondering what’s gonna happen in terms of who’s gonna be sitting in those seats”

Marleni Cuellar
“What kind of indicator is it for what will happen next Friday?”

Janelle Chanona
“But then wasn’t that touched upon. I know at the People’s United Party put out a press release, seventeen points of truth, and wasn’t that area touched on saying well if you are not going to be there it’s almost like you are vote the opposition and so we have no use for you kind of a thing?”

Stewart Krohn
“Political parties put out a lot of words and some of them are long-lived and some of them are short-lived. I think it was nineteen points, whatever it was, basically amounted to a threat to those who would dear not support the Prime Minister. Whether the Prime Minister would make good on the threat, I don’t know. I would think that he probably would because, I mean, you can only put up with so much. Life is real, at some point you make decisions and there are consequences. It’s like Patrick Faber, you’ve disobeyed the standing rules so many times at some point you are gonna face the music and your gonna get named and your gonna get kicked out of the House. But being kicked out of the House is not nearly as great a punishment as if you are a minster and you loose your portfolio because when that power evaporates you kind of disappear politically. There is one more clip I wanted to show and this is where my day intersected with your day that has to do…when you saw the clip of when the fellow took the tear gas canister and threw it back into the ranks of the police, the way the wind was blowing that tear gas blew into the National Assembly and everyone who was in there, Legislators, media, just general observers they all got it to varying degrees. So I think there’s a little clip that shows what happens when the…I think it was Mr. Finnegan who was so overcome with tear gas and common sense that he asked for an adjournment and the Speaker did grant it. So let’s see what happens, it’s a short clip.”

Michael Finnegan
“Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I noh know if di tear gas noh di burn you; I want to stay in the House. Let’s adjourn the house for a few minutes till the smell of this tear gas fade out. This thing di kill members in here. Can we have an adjournment for five minutes until this cool off.”

Elizabeth Zabaneh
“Alright Honourable Member I will grant your wishes; five minutes and then we will come back.”

Marleni Cuellar
“A taste of what you were feeling outside>’

Stewart Krohn
“I didn’t do a dramatic stand up like you did, Janelle, but the tear was in there.”

Janelle Chanona
“So, alright, next week Friday we’ll see what happens.”

Stewart Krohn
“Next week Friday.”

Marleni Cuellar
“This just leaves us thinking what’s to come, what’s to come.”

Janelle Chanona
“I have a feeling Tuesday we’ll be busy with everything that’s going to happen this weekend as the repercussions of today’s events manifest in I think what can only be called police reaction to all the violence and destruction today. So hopefully …”

Marleni Cuellar
“Let’s hope it’s all non-violent.”

Janelle Chanona
“Yes. Exactly.”

Stewart Krohn
“Well I hope everyone takes this long holiday weekend, relaxes, get their mind in a more positive frame.”

Marleni Cuellar
“Absolutely, and not loose sight of the issue.”