Closing arguments for UNIBAM in Caleb Orozco versus Attorney General
Day two of Caleb Orozco versus the Attorney-General of Belize wrapped up after four this afternoon before Chief Justice Kenneth Benjamin. Orozco is challenging the constitutionality of the section fifty-three of the Criminal Code. Lead counsel for Orozco, Christopher Hamel Smith closed arguments while Lord Peter Goldsmith, made submissions on behalf of three foreign interested parties. But today what happened inside the Court was somewhat overshadowed by comments from involved or affiliated parties outside the courtroom. We’ll have all that, but first, a summary of the argument presented on Orozco’s behalf.
Lisa Shoman, Attorney for Orozco
Lisa Shoman
“We all think we know what carnal knowledge means—in plain language, sex. But what does against the order of nature means? And Mister Hamel Smith has given the court both the widest possible interpretation as well as the narrowest possible. He looked at the fact of human sexuality as between humans and contrasted that with an offense that a man commits on an animal which obviously cannot give consent. And what he has done is also to look at the sections in the constitution that are being abrogated: right o human dignity, right to privacy, right to equal treatment before the law, right to freedom from discrimination. And asked the court to look at that to see how section fifty-three infringes each of those rights. And it is a complete fallacy to say it hasn’t been used in fifty years. It has. In fact, we have reports in 2008 and 2009 that females were arrested under this section. In 1998, in fact two adult females were arrested. So it is not true to say it hasn’t been use so let’s ignore it. So we looked at that. This isn’t about homosexuality. There is no law against homosexuality in Belize. What there is is a law that impacts on all Belizeans and all adult Belizeans to one extent or the other but that is overwhelmingly prejudicial particularly to homosexual men. But it is a law that can catch any one of us. And if you went to your doctor and disclosed that you had done certain things and therefore put yourself at risk, you could actually have the doctor be forced to report that and you would be a felon. You would be arrested. The police have admitted that they don’t go knocking down bedrooms to find it, but they say if in the course of reporting a crime, it comes out that anal sex occurred, well then we have to arrest you for that. So it causes a lot of problems; it causes a lot of stigma.”
Christopher Hamel Smith
Christopher Hamel Smith, Lead Counsel for Orozco
“Can we understand that people can be different to us? They may make different choices to the choices we make. And we may not like those choices, but at the same time, they are to be respected and they are certainly not to be punished by ten years imprisonment because they think different than we think or they choose in private, in consenting relationship to do something that we may not do. It is none of the law’s business to come knocking down the bedroom door to tell people what they do in the most intimate spaces of their life. We need to get past that and be a little bit mature as Caribbean people and understand that that is what our constitutions require. That is all that this case is about and that is all that we are asking the judge to decide.”
The essence of the gay argument here seems to be, “If I want to do it, and I do it secretly, then the constitution protects me.”
The same argument would create a constitutional right to use cocaine, heroin, or any drug in private. Likewise it would be used to legalize prostitution, sex with animals, and polygamy.
There really is no end to the mischief and evil that can be justified with the same argument.
I hope the court rejects the international promoters of perversion, and upholds the fact that Belize has rights, too, such as to try to exist as nation built on the bedrock of biblical morality.
Great coverage of an important issue, Ch5. thanks for giving us a platform for airing views on such a defining national issue.
@Evolved One your post yesterday on this issue, especially the last part on religion, stood out like a single rose against the shrubbery. no offense. you should post more. i had hoped that you would tackle Storm but i surmise you thought you’d better not. Storm is no mental slouch either, but i still think you could have licked a faith-based argument.
Mrs. Shoman failed to mention where these two women were caught in the act that led to them being arrested. I am sure men who have sex with men and women who have sex with women and women who have sex with men have been caught in the act and arrested too, but that is because they tend to expose their behavior in public restrooms, road sides, bars and places where people traffic and that is a crime. So I am sure this has been the case for both sides of the coin.
NO WAY TO GAY AGENDA
I pity Caleb nobody ever paid him no mind till now he did this to get attention
I want them to explain to the judge exactly how it is that 2 men go about having sex, and how 2 women go about having sex, and what the end result is, and how they plan on teaching this nasty behavior in our schools, our children, and our next generation.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO to Sodom and Gomorrah, THIS IS BELIZE and Belize is for Jesus
We all wasting our energies on this and have forgotten the real issues in society:
1. Little girls getting abused, raped and empregnated
2. ROSEWOOD being cut left right and center
3. Crime situation
4. Hungry children that go to school with empty stomach
5. The DRUG TRADE
and the list goes on….
Wake up Belize, DO NOT BE DISTRACTED by this. It is a planned sh—- to keep our attention while all the above take place.
“Gay rights” will start to grow like a cancer.. embracing homosexuality is taking a bold stand against what God condemn, the act of homosexuality.
This is not about human rights, no one can loose their right to be human, and it’s not about love for humanity. NO ONE loves us more than God, yet God condemns homosexuality with complete disgust and hatred. Dice it, Chop it, dissect it, flip it, deny it, whatever you do, you can’t change the truth, and it is not relative, the truth won’t change if you don’t believe it.
This is not about freedom, because we will never be free to do all that we lust after.
WARNING Belize, don’t depend on lawyers, judges, vote polls, get on your knees and pray. Clear you heart of all sin that prevents your communication with God and fervently pray.
John Doe comment is about the only comment above that makes any sense and I agree with him completely! It is amazing to me how there are thjose who can take unrelated and different issues and use those as arguments against this debate at hand. When this is all over and the GOB strikes out those few words from the constitution child abuse, the use of hard drugs, polygamy, sex with animals… will all still illegal and will never change! The GOB right now is happy because the attention of many has bee refocussed and no one is paying any attention to the real issues that will affect their lives. Like fools many are so in tunned to this that our forrest is being depleeted, teachers salaries are not being attended to, there are still much too much violence, drug trade, hungry children….Again why was there no public outcry of this magnitude when religeous leaders in Belize and all over the world were molesting innocent children?
Only IGNORANT, INSECURE and HOMOPHOBIC people are scared of the GAY COMMUNITY. Based on some of the comments that I read yesterday and today, it is quite obvious that many folks need to be educated on this issue. SOME people are conflating pedophilia and homosexuality as one, when that is far from the truth. This case is arguing for the rights of consenting adults to be protected under the law. Something to ponder…. for those who are discriminating against the gay community, imagine that you and your people were being discriminated upon because of something the masses thought was unnatural and ungodly, whether it be for your beliefs, skin color, or a horrendous disease….ask yourselves how would you feel, would you want protection, would you want to be treated as equal to everyone else, or even more would you want live free and open. As I’ve said before, for those who believe in GOD, it is said that he made everyone in his own image, therefore if he made this guy and others to be gay, then who are we to judge them. And for the educated folks who believe in science, Biology dictates how we behave as individuals; if there is an imbalance in the hormones that is responsible for masculinity and femininity, then one would act in accordance with the dominant side of the imbalance, HENCE THE REASON, we have girls acting boys, and boys acting like girls.
Let the people of Belize decide through a referendum with the almighty on our side. They’ll get the sense.
hahah they are trying to free the bung hole……bung hole is illegal. no entry, the only part of the human body that has restrictions and is bound by law, the Gov owns your Arse. lol leave it as it is………………..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well said John Doe you seem to be the only one who is paying attention to what’s going on the ret of these people are missing the boat.
@NY:Then perhaps Biology dictates why people are murderers and pedophiles so should we also make those people do as they please?. .Your argument makes no sense.Furthermore someone sharing a different piont of view on this issue than what you believe doesn’t make them ignorant.
@NY:If the issue here is about consenting adults then why is this case in court?If you agree to do something withsomeone then there isn’t a problem.
TB…good comment TB…I am yet to hear an argument in their defense? I do not consider Ms. Shoman argument to be an argument at all…no teeth to it..no substance….and the others likewise…”considering themselves to be wise them become fools…” read that somewhere in the Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth Manual… but on a more serious not…Belize is a small nation, the majority of the population are young…ages 0 to 14 alone is about 40% already of the population…the agenda of these people is to indoctrinate our young nation and the core of our foundation for a stronger Belize , its young people and babies from an early age to embrace this ungodliness, this abomination…it will not happen…Belize will not change its mind to appease a few opportunists nor become a haven for this lifestyle…I will continue to pray for the lost soul of Caleb Orosco and his followers…who is he to garner such support? Nothing but a pawn and in the hands of the enemy of the church of Jesus Christ…we are not deceived…and don’t you be either…God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that will he also reap…if they sow to the flesh they by the flesh will reap corruption…but if they sow to the Spirit, the will reap eternal life…Jesus loves you, Caleb and company, He died for us all to redeem us from the curse of the law…not the Criminal Code 53…there may yet be hope for you yet before the Lord give you all over to a reprobate mind, although am thinking from reading some of the comments that perhaps some already are given over to this mind…
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Today, nations like USA, Britain, Caribbean culturally accept homosexuality and same sex marriages as gay rights or human rights, but this does not mean that it is acceptable with God.
Leviticus 18:22 NLT says plainly, “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.” It is a detestable sin…morally disgusting!! How can we Christians and Believers in Jesus Christ sit with our folded arms and ask “why worry, there are more important issues to be dealt with? This is very important to us Belizeans. We are God-fearing people. We are afraid of the rod of correction from Our God Almighty. We know what is right from wrong. Our forefathers knew what was right from wrong and they wrote up the Constitution from way back. Why change it to satisfy this young man and other young men who want to be women. God made them men, HE would never make them homosexuals..if HE said it is a detestable sin. Hormonal imbalances can be corrected by hormonal therapy. They can be straight and respectable young men like many others in our community. Why should we confirm to this sinful modern culture? Because internationally it is accepted? Or because the US President says so? “”” The Obama administration recently sent a message this year to countries in the Caribbean and Central America stating that there would be economic repercussions for non-compliance with its policies of acceptance of homosexual and transgender lifestyles.””” Our God is more Mightier and Powerful than all presidents. Let’s not succumb to their pressure and stand firm. May God give us the strength and wisdom to fight for our Godly rights. Thanks to the churches who are firm in their Biblical belief. The Church may not be the ‘keeper of the law’, but is the ‘conscience of the law’. Let’s keep our conscience clear and Godly. I believe that those in support of the UNIBAM are in for the funding and attention. God knows their hearts and intentions.
Well said Yvonne…couldn’t have said it better. We are a God fearing country and afraid of HIS rod of correction. Belize cannot be another Sodom and Gomorrah. The consequence of sin is disastrous. May we continue praying for wisdom and strength for those who are standing firm in their belief saving our country from disaster. May those who came to support this sin go back home in defeat. May our country be an example to the world. God is with us.
Most Belizeans living with disability in the jewel are not afforded the rights that they deserve,should they also challenge the Constitution?
Hard to believe that in this century, people still believe that homosexuality is a choice. Who in their right mind would choose to be gay in a homophobic society such as ours, who would opt for the life of a pariah. Homosexuals are born, not made. Growing up I knew a few people who displayed gay tendencies from a very early age, and sure enough, today, they are homosexual adults. They came into this world wired that way, and quite frankly, they are among the most educated and productive citizens we have. Save your wrath for the elements running around wreaking havoc in our streets.
By the way, I’m not gay, not that there’s anything wrong with it.
Mrs. Lisa I feel your failing us the Belizeans this time, instead of fighting for us the Belizean for the well being of the country your doing it for the wrong claimant which i hope you won’t regret it Mrs. L many a times i use to see you as a good personal an Icon for the country but damn!! you do what you thinks is good but hope you change your mind on this case.
If you were a Jew, in the last century, you would know what it feels like to be condemned for your faith. If you were black, you would know how it feels to be condemned for the color of your skin. If you were a woman, you would know what it felt like to be a second class citizen, unable to vote. If you are gay, you will know what its like to be condemned for the way you were born. When this is all over and done with, people hiding behind the “name of God” will find another group to victimize.
Come on,Belize.I think there are more important things in the country to deal with,discuss,argue and comment about.Really.
@jay… who died and made you supreme ruler of science and discovery?? as far as research goes today there has not been any scientific evidence to show that homosexuals are born that way. There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. So you just can’t conclude with no actual solid evidence that gays are born that way!!! Research has been going on for decades and still no find as to what is the exact cause. Can’t the solution be so simple as gays developing a preference for the same sex over time??? It is not impossible but everyone seems to discard that probability. Some people realize they are gay from an early age, others realize later in life. If being gay is a “bad habbit” (using those two words because of a lack of better words) that is developed in life, then I believe we should not change anything in this country for a select few who are gay. We should not lower our morals in this country for the few who wish to have things their way. If Mr Orozco wishes to be somewhere that accept gays then he should go somewhere else because he won’t find it here in the jewel. Not hating… Just being Real…
.Come on,Belize.I think there are more important things in the country to deal with,discuss,argue and comment about.Really
NO way to Gay, the first thing that should be though of is our children!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
well I think that the case should be aired live on the news so that the CHURCH and IGNORANT people can see for their selves what’s the arguments from the defendants side and the Attorney General’s side!!
LAwgirl… 😀
Isabel, I could not have said it better myself. Belizean believers, continue to stand up for Biblical truth—-not the man-made kind. Jesus, the Way, the Truth and the Life, has the last word and always will.
I would be Interested to know which organization started the whole homosexuality debate, it might look or seem a person or small group starting a tax payers money waste, but it’s not, it’s international organizations putting their nose in foreign country’s.
When a person observes a snake, it’s head is shaped a little different then the rest of the round body, but we know that we have to cut the head off to kill it.
I’m just suggesting that who ever is responsible for creating that stupid situation needs to be taken out and then let the public (National) decide on it.
Sorry Jay, but homosexuality is a choice, even if you are a practicing homosexual. You missed the point – is some born a thief? No, it is a choice. The danger is to the children. I again reference the nambla.org website. This is the real agenda. There are homosexuals in every facet of society. They may or may not be productive members of society, just like other humans. The thing that sets them apart is that they want everyone on board with their full agenda. If they are practicing homosexuals of legal age and want to have “sex” in the privacy of their own home with another consenting adult, so be it. But if you give their current activities legality, the full agenda comes out of the closet too. It has happened in every country that recognizes homosexual right. Is Mr. Caleb being denied a human right? We have a right to choose. How many human rights are defined. In the USA they are trying to make free education through the University level a human right. Therefor if you can’t pass an entrance exam, the University is denying a human right by not allowing an individual to enter a school because of low grade scores. I agree that there are “bigger fish to fry” in Belize, however, Caleb brought this to the table, so let a court decide where it goes.
Come on,Belize.I think there are more important things in the country to deal with,discuss,argue and comment about.Really
@ELGIN, Murders and pedophiles prey on the weak and vulnerable, therefore these people are a menace to society. Furthermore, their actions has nothing to do with Biology, as aforementioned, they prey on the weak and vulnerable because they themselves are weak and consider themselves vulnerable due to some mental trauma they may have experienced as a child, and as a result they tend to act out against society. I assume that you and many others consider yourselves to be Your God’s most perfect creation……now consider this, one day the masses thought that you and your people are no longer acceptable to society due to something you have no control over foe example. your skin color, I ASSUME at that point you and the many others who are discriminating against the gay community would be singing another tune and see things differently via the prism of those you are condemning. I believe in good and evil, and history has shown that the good guys always triumph at the end of the day. This case has to do with good people who want to see everyone protected under the law versus bad people who tend to be hypocritical in their views, only want to see some folks who they seem as worthy to be protected. AS a human rights advocate I would be the first to defend you and others, if I thought that you were being prosecuted unjustly.
Liberty and Freedom….how can u compare a thief and a homosexual…IT IS NOT A CHOICE. If it is then u try “choosing” to be gay see what happens. Such an idiot. A thief can choose to steal yes. One can choose to murder. So tell me if u have a child or know a child, and he is displaying such behaviour from young age, is he or she “choosing” to act that way??? No!!! They are innocent and have not been taught that behaviour, they were born with it. No fault of theirs or their parents. Scientists don’t know everything, how can they know there is an explanation. It’s still in the research process. But is not paid much mind because it is not an issue, it is not killing anyone. They devote their time tio bigger things, like causes of illnesses and cures to diseases etc. Come on….